General Announcements » What does HCSMP think about opples?

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foxitude Player
Posted Jul 14 2013, 01:03 PM

It has been brought to my attention that a pvp fight at the moment basically boils down to who has the most enchanted apples (opples) due to recent updates.

It has been suggested that they are removed until a suitable nerf or fix comes along, so I decided to make this thread to get your opinions and input.

 

- foxi

TrumpeterSwann Moderator
Posted Jul 14 2013, 02:36 PM

Combat in this game is broken and dumb, has always been broken and dumb, and will forever be broken and dumb.

That said, yeah that sounds like a quick 'n' dirty fix that would be pretty effective.

xMopx Player
Posted Jul 14 2013, 02:55 PM

Quote from TrumpeterSwann:

Combat in this game is broken and dumb, has always been broken and dumb, and will forever be broken and dumb.

That said, yeah that sounds like a quick 'n' dirty fix that would be pretty effective.

1.6 made it a little better. Fights don't last nearly as long as they used to.

And since opples are the last thing that can drag a fight out now, they should be removed.

V1c10us_gamer Player
Posted Jul 14 2013, 08:21 PM

Please don't remove opples. Its another kick in the teeth for people who don't engange in pvp on acount of those whoi do. Golden apples have valid uses outside of pvp combat; fighting a wither boss say, or taking an imprompu lava bath in the nether. Yes opples are, as the moniker implies extremely powerful, they are also cost ineffective requiring over a full stack of gold to produce one. If someone happens to be carrying 5 opples this means that they took the time to mine up 360 gold ore, even with the auriferous terrain gen thats no small feat. But pvpers don't like that because said player might be able to escape or defeat them ccourtesy of their opples so they want them removed. This is asinine and completely unfair. Anytime  you engage in pvp you run the risk that your opponent has you outgunned, whether via opples, potions or better enchants/armor. This has always been the case and likely always will.

A few more things to consider:

How many people have had this problem compared to the number of people who regularly play on the server?

Any nerf or mod to opples would likely be as forthcoming as the modifications to enderchests, that is to say, not at all.

Finally, I find it bizarre that anyone would be squealing for a "fair fight"  on server where perfidy and murder are the order of the day. If you're expecting an honourable duel between equals i'd advise look elsewhere or accept and expect that your challenger might not play fair.

xMopx Player
Posted Jul 14 2013, 09:36 PM

Quote from FlyingPastry:

I think they can stay in.  You could maybe reduce the amount of gold next map, to make it harder to get opples.

Unfair for people who need gold for non-pvp purposes.

V1c10us_gamer Player
Posted Jul 14 2013, 10:31 PM

Quote from FlyingPastry:

Quote from xMopx:

Quote from FlyingPastry:

I think they can stay in.  You could maybe reduce the amount of gold next map, to make it harder to get opples.

Unfair for people who need gold for non-pvp purposes.

What other use does gold have?  Also, I thought this server was trying to be as vanilla as possible.

Gold is used in powered rails, clocks, some alchemy ingredients and can be used in block form to build a beacon. None of these, save the last; requires the huge amounts of gold that only a handful of opples would.  There is only one way that nerfing opples would be acceptable to me and that is to make them non stackable. I do not think that they ought to be removed while this is being worked on as we have no idea how long this would take.

xMopx Player
Posted Jul 15 2013, 10:36 AM

Quote from V1c10us_gamer:

Quote from FlyingPastry:

Quote from xMopx:

Quote from FlyingPastry:

I think they can stay in.  You could maybe reduce the amount of gold next map, to make it harder to get opples.

Unfair for people who need gold for non-pvp purposes.

What other use does gold have?  Also, I thought this server was trying to be as vanilla as possible.

Gold is used in powered rails, clocks, some alchemy ingredients and can be used in block form to build a beacon. None of these, save the last; requires the huge amounts of gold that only a handful of opples would.  There is only one way that nerfing opples would be acceptable to me and that is to make them non stackable. I do not think that they ought to be removed while this is being worked on as we have no idea how long this would take.

Some people use gold for decoration in construciton too, and depending on build scale a lot can be needed.

spellcasters Player
Posted Jul 15 2013, 11:50 AM

how about no opples if combat taged

klaazjan Player
Posted Jul 15 2013, 06:10 PM

I still don't get it why opples should be removed on a server that tries to be as vanilla as possible. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

motku Player
Posted Jul 15 2013, 09:35 PM | Edited 2 times, last by motku

Quote from TrumpeterSwann:

Combat in this game is broken and dumb, has always been broken and dumb, and will forever be broken and dumb.

That said, yeah that sounds like a quick 'n' dirty fix that would be pretty effective.

I agree completely. Combat was added to stave off envionmental mobs, not players. The game was never designed with PvP as a concent; that came after the fact.

This is a building game, first and foremost. It's an adventure game second. And it's a combat game third. PvP appears maybe as a fourth pillar; but it would be a very short one.

I think this server would improve drastically if it was removed completely, I say this understanding how this would detract from the aggressive lot, or from that certain level of risk.
But it really, really, really sucks for building community. I managed to get two basemates (one has died so far) and BOTH were freakishly hesitant of joining up with me until I literally gave them enough gifts to realize that I have no plans of fucking with them.

Kinda sad, when a community of likeminded players could really work on making impressive builds; thereby attracting more players, as stated; MC is first and foremost a building game.

I digress,
I'm clearly indifferent to opples. As you won't see me PvP here, literally ever. It's not that I'm against PvP, there are great games designed around it. But MC is not one of those game.

However! I do think gold should stay in the game. I really like building rail lines connecting things I've worked on; which in turn helps me move supplies to work on things. And powered rail is my main use of gold. Followed by gold carrots.

J0E Player
Posted Jul 16 2013, 04:14 PM | Edited 1 time, last by J0E

 

Quote:

I agree completely. Combat was added to stave off envionmental mobs, not players. The game was never designed with PvP as a concent; that came after the fact.

This is a building game, first and foremost. It's an adventure game second. And it's a combat game third. PvP appears maybe as a fourth pillar; but it would be a very short one.

I think this server would improve drastically if it was removed completely

 

This is the worst Idea I've ever heard.  I'd love to type up a laundry list of reasons why this is a terrible idea but we'll just leave it at that.  Creating a plugin which could act as a time (like pearl cooldown) would work well however that would take time to implement. 

cbarber Player
Posted Jul 16 2013, 05:20 PM

Before leaping to any game changes, I think we should review the following:

* What was the ratio of extended regen I pots to prot 4 diamond armor in 1.5.2 (until the armor had lost all durability)?

* How long would prot 4 diamond armor in 1.5.2 last with extended regen I up?

* What is the ratio of opples to prot 4 diamond armor in 1.6.2 (until the armor had lost all durability)?

* How long does prot 4 diamond armor in 1.6.2 last with opple effects up?

Knowing this information would greatly aid in understanding the actual balance changes and make revisions less of a shot in the dark. Does anyone have these figures or could acquire them?

ocelotpotpie Player
Posted Jul 16 2013, 05:22 PM

^

SvenBoogie Player
Posted Jul 16 2013, 06:24 PM

Taking something that is in the game now, and requires a substantial amount of work to get, having people spend time getting it on that basis, then removing it because pvp killers don't want to have to spend time mining definitely seems like a lovely idea that couldn't possibly have any negative connotations.

 

/sarcasm

ZeroRussia Player
Posted Jul 16 2013, 07:46 PM | Edited 2 times, last by ZeroRussia

Quote from cbarber:

Before leaping to any game changes, I think we should review the following:

* What was the ratio of extended regen I pots to prot 4 diamond armor in 1.5.2 (until the armor had lost all durability)?

Generally people would carry about 5 extended regen and that would last until your armor broke.

* How long would prot 4 diamond armor in 1.5.2 last with extended regen I up?

I'd say usually about 5 minutes or less with 1 set of armor, occasionally lasting much longer in some fights. If it is a 1v1 then no more than 10 minutes. Sometimes you would die even with regen if you aren't very good at pvp or get yourself into a bad situation.

Not sure about the other 2 points, as I haven't tested opples in 1.6.2.

 

lanman Player
Posted Jul 17 2013, 05:27 PM

Alot of good post and opinions on this thread, However I believe one of the most "OP" powers of the "opples" is their abbility to be stacked to 64 like all items. Suggestion: If players could only cary one per stack at a time then that may help this issue of players hoarding mass ammounts of these "opples".  Players will ofcoarse try to find ways to work arround this but it would undoubtly cause inventory management issues for those who rely on these "opples". Besides that suggestion I would be all for the idea of just tossing them out as they throw off the balance of an already unbalanced pvp system.  Oh, and concerning changing gold ammounts in maps- as someone who enjoys the alchemy system in minecraft, please do not change the gold ammounts!

motku Player
Posted Jul 17 2013, 08:59 PM

Quote from FlyingPastry:

PVP last?  No.  Adventure, creativity, building, and PVP are in no specific order.  It's in whatever order the player wants it.  It's not up to you to decide what's most important.  It's up to whoever's playing.  That's only your priority list.

I disagree. When planning out a game, you make certain determinations initially. Then you make some that come after the initial design.

Example; minecraft was never originaly designed with multiplayer in mind.
But, added multiplayer before alpha. Likely realized that it would be more fun this way.

This means that the core game was designed around removing and placing blocks in a quasi dangerous environment, not about multiplayer issues. The complexities of how players engage with each other was drastically missing. I would argue that those complexities and balances are equally missing from vanilla MC.

Compare vanilla MC to say; TeamFortress, DOTA, even WoW or Guild Wars 2. These games originated with an idea of multiplayer -and in most cases- especially PvP. The designers of these games will even state that making a multiplayer game and converting it to a singleplayer game is actually easier to pull of than doing the reverse. Because the design of a multiplayer game actually has more restrictions and confining rulesets to take into account how players play, which can easily be confered to a singleplayer system.

Minecraft did not originate as a PvP/MP game, even the adventure mode was added long into the game's development. But the difference here is that the team is dedicated to the adventure experience.
Minecraft does not have a PvP designer on their development team, literally no one holds this title. It's an afterthought that balances out assuming players are equally geared or stated.

This balancing is something typically handled by the server. In this case, HCSMP could ban golden apples. They could ban diamond chest pieces, TnT, cave spiders, or enchanted bows. They could permit players to call down lightning, safely jump twelve blocks high, or spawn zombie babies under their thrall. They have the ability to run this server how they want to. And if opples are something they feel should not be in players hands they will purge it. Any one of these limitations or additions would drastically change the management of PvP for the community. Again, because vanilla MC is in no way balanced nor designed for solid PvP mechanics without direct involvement of the server team.

This, oddly, is what I like best about these server. It is, esentially, a vanilla like environment. But I am not adverse to them adding small limitations or permissions. campfire and bounties are nice additions, so what's so bad about some limitations?

randerson2011 Player
Posted Jul 20 2013, 03:09 AM

Not everyone plays minecraft the same as eachother. Not everyone plays this server the same way. This doesn't mean that the issues of those who enjoy PvP and play on this server to PvP should be neglected because 'this game wasn't made for PvP'. Opples are an issue, I think, because they provide near immunity to everything PvE and PvP wise. The only causes of death would be

  • A large fall
  • Lots of tnt(carts)
  • Armor breaking while fighting mobs/players
  • Falling into the void

Other than that, you CANNOT DIE. For 30 seconds. There could be a zombie pigman with a sharp V sword and strength II repeatedly hitting you and you will not die. Meaning the more you mine = the more likely you are to stay alive. This is extremely unbalanced both PvP and PvE wise, whether or not opples are expensive.

Posted Sep 09 2013, 08:14 PM

You Should Definatly get rid of them there a B***

 

kTdnG Administrator
Posted Sep 10 2013, 05:29 AM

i disagree. if i were to encounter one of the beter PVPers i would definetly use my opple for safeguard. I have potions in my inventory but they are not even comparable to the effect of an opple. Last map i had an encounter with ZeroRussia and he gutted me down in 3 strikes. the time between 3 strikes would give me the opportunity to consume my opple and run for my life instead of being unable to do anything and just face certain defeat. If i were to have multiple opples (which obviously would require ALOT of mining) i might even stand a chance in engagin in such a fight. keep in mind i am not the experienced PVPer like a larger group of players on the server. so i keep my opple safe in my hotbar just in case of emergency.

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